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 Why does it say 36 votes
Why does it say 36 votes where you click to get in here and only 18 as of right now have voted?
Fulic
Fulic
http://eq.magelo.com/profile/1388153
Broken, I Guess?
I mentioned / noticed the same about 4 months ago, but no one responded
http://www.keepersoftheglade.com/node/5452
Conqueror Yorag
boxes
Boxes should only be allowed to earn full dkp if they actually do something other than buf...
Boxes and dkp
To clarify my voting I thought I would post. I checked the box that said "boxes should be allowed only if there is a critical need" because that is how I feel it would be best under our current dkp system. If there was some kind of dkp cap that a box could spend, i.e. say 200 dkp, where boxes couldnt outbid mains for some very nice drop, I would have checked the "boxes should be allowed on raids at reduced dkp" box.
Faz
Boxes on raid
I think boxes are fine on raids as long as they are played and they help the raid in some way or serve a purpose. Second a box could never out dkp a main in any loot item period.
Boxes
Astrio I do agree on the dkp over a main char, but Bam has a good point, boxes would never get any loot. Look at her post under the DKP, Orb and other issues post, she has a great point. I have absolutly no problems with boxes on raids and even bidding DKP above probationary mains but when someone has been with the guild for a while and not going any where they shouldn't be out bidded by boxes.
Dark Elf Shadow Knight 75 seasoned
http://eq.magelo.com/profile/1377087
Dark Elf Necromancer 45 seasoned
Tyez Quote: I have absolutly
Tyez Quote:
I have absolutly no problems with boxes on raids and even bidding DKP above probationary mains but when someone has been with the guild for a while and not going any where they shouldn't be out bidded by boxes.
The problem with this is, and going back to Bam's post, is by the time all of the mains get their items over boxes, then those probationary mains would've become full time mains with DKP to bid on and the boxes would never get any loot. It is a never ending cycle and until we can handle these mobs with no boxes, we have to keep them geared so they not just instant death cannon fodder.
Fazoox Quote:
If there was some kind of dkp cap that a box could spend, i.e. say 200 dkp, where boxes couldnt outbid mains for some very nice drops.
See the above response to the Tyez quote. It still applies.
Cykor
Which way to the nearest Pizza Parlor?
Which way to the nearest Pizza Parlor?
True
I see your point Cykor, didn't even think of that. Yes I agree that this isn't a easy solution and have talked with Omegga, I will support any decision the officers will make. On a topic like this not everyone will be happy with the desion being made but the officers are doing a great job. You have a great point Cykor and I once again didn't think of that happening. Yes boxes do need to get geared until we don't need them anymore for raid, but right now we wouldnt last very long without the boxes.
Dark Elf Shadow Knight 75 seasoned
http://eq.magelo.com/profile/1377087
Dark Elf Necromancer 45 seasoned
repost from other post line.
This is actually taken from my other post, but since the discussion is actually being held here I am copy'ing it and paste'ing it here. Other options
I have already posted on the poll, however just as a brainstorming thing, I did come up with a few more options.
1. Box's be allowed on raids and earn 75% of total amount, but be disallowed the "raiders" bonus. (My reasoning behind this is that the person behind the toons already gets his/her "raiders" bonus on thier main.)
2. (This was actually one of Daj's ideas before he left.) Box's be allowed on the raid if they are able to play both accounts to the same extent as an average player. Aka, if you have a cleric and a warrior, you must be able to do both duties at the same level as an average player, and at the same time. So for my example above if your cleric is in a CH rotation, and your warrior is offtanking, you must keep at the CH rotation in your correct spot, and still be able to keep agro on your warrior.
Just two more ideas to put out there.
Rooke the purple dwarf.
Huh?
Tyez said "Yes boxes do need to get geared until we don't need them anymore for raid, but right now we wouldnt last very long without the boxes."
"Yes boxes do need to get geared until we don't need them anymore for raid" - Don't mains? If not we will always need them.
I see the need for buffs and teleports and stuff but "wouldnt last very long without the boxes."? If that is the case we obviously need to gear up more mains.
If the point of this thread is how to encourage more mains to raid or retain more raiders who are discouraged by having to outbid not just a rival main but a rival box also then yes it is a never ending cycle on both sides of the issue. A box listed as a "raider" who attends most Friday and Saturday raids will always have more dkp than a main who may only make 1 of them. So where is the encouragement in that system for a non "raider" to attend raids? Some casual players would consider that gearing up other players boxes while the person boxing would consider that a fair system.
My own personal opinion, and experience, is that no one can ever play a main and box as effectively as the main alone. It is of course also true that on some raids we really need boxes, i.e. no chanter and someone has a chanter box or no shaman and someone has a shaman box and so on and so forth. The point, I think, is that people are concerned that the boxes are getting better geared than a lot of the mains and something has to be wrong with that system.
Faz
Tactfully
First I have not voted as I feel we need a control of who plays 2 or more on a raid. I have seen merit in more than one option but feel there should have been another option similiar to the last but where someone can be told they can only play one. (I remember my daughter was not a very strong player and had two accounts and thought she could play 2.)
Second I play two. Self interest is not productive for anyone. My second character is a silk class who can wait until others who are more in the front of the raid get better gear. When the time is right she will get better gear, for now it is more important to our raid force to gear up our pullers and main tanks. (If you look at the DKP list you will see she has the DKP to bid on any item but that is not why she has as much dkp as she does.) If we all pay attention to loot, we would see those who need it most for us to win geared up and all the rest of us soon after.
Third we need good players doing the task they are best suited to do by class, or classes if they are playing two. I will say that as the content gets more difficult the task of playing two does as well. Many who are weak at playing two will find it too hard to continue. Some who are skilled will also find they want to focus on mains.
Meboom Mebigg, 75
Meboom Mebigg, 75 Conqueror
A raider's MAIN character is the backbone of our guild raids and it is those folks who the guild leadership SHOULD give priority to when allowing bids for upper end loot, i.e. Anguish especially. We need to beef up all our dedicated raid mains to become as powerful as possible in order to achieve success. Right now, we can't consistently win the tough fights unless we have outside help. That should be a "loud and clear" message to the leadership. We have had folks get upset and leave over loot in the past but current folks need to understand that a certain priority needs to be given to mains for these raids. The current loot policy in some loot situations where an alt or a box outbids a main for one of these upper end drops, is bad raiding business and sends a message to all mains that their presence/participation is not that important in my opinion. In these higher end zones that we have worked so hard to get to, I feel the loot should be to initally request ONLY mains to bid first and if there are no takers then open it up to alts/boxes. And as Caeni alluded to in this thread, there are certain classes that need more help than others at this time.
I only have one character that I play on raids so I don't feel what the folks with alts/boxes feel; however, we all should understand that to allow anyone to potentially win a bid from a main who has been a dedicated raider is almost as bad a loot strategy as random rolls and it may cause more problems than not for Keepers to become self-reliant for these harder zones.
Oh...one more thing, I agree that boxes should be allowed to attend raids as long as NO main is turned away and that they should earn some DKP. I also think some of the DKP earned by boxes in some circumstances is waaay too much for what they bring to the raid especially if a person is not adept at playing 2 or more characters simultaneously or the class is only needed for buffing or gimpage. So I think the amount of DKP awarded should reflect their box/alt's contribution to the raid, not a set percentage but that's another story.
My 2 cents.
Meboom Mebigg, 75 Conqueror
Agree with Meboom (shhh don't let it get out)
I do agree with Meboom on the following statements:
"...beef up our dedicated raid mains..."
"when an alt or a box outbids a main..... sends a message to all mains that their presence/ participation is not that important..."
"I feel the loot should be to initially request ONLY mains to bid first and if there are no takers then to open it up to alts/boxes."
I was divided in how I wanted to vote because my vote didn't quite fit in just one category based on the above thoughts that Meboom has described well. I appreciate the boxes that help us go on raids, and they should earn some dkp. I have been on a raid and seen a bid opened up for boxes/alts when no main wanted to bid - rarely though. As a fairly new rogue to the guild, I can understand why someone might be "put off" if they have been earning dkp and following their probation period finally can start to bid on items and then lose to an alt who can outbid them. I have earned almost 400 dkp, which means I have made a significant amount of the raids up to now during my short membership, I have only bid on a few items because the bidding is so high usually (not complaining.. just being patient). If an item came up that significantly improves my armor, and I lost to an alt that outbid me, it would feel uncomfortable. I am fairly easy going and I really like the guild, so I would plug along and keep raiding because I REALLY enjoy going places I have never been, and the guild is strong enough to do that. However, I would imagine others would not be as loyal in the end. Ultimately, it would be wonderful if the guild numbers could increase a little more - maybe 10 more people or so. But to draw and keep people interested in the guild, people will play their main and want rewards. So, being sensitive to the "mains needs" would be a priority.
I also appreciate it takes a certain skill to develop alts/boxes and want/need to play them while we raid. Having to play someone different is not always what someone wants to do. They are often necessary, but primarily necessary "because" there are not enough mains.
The best possible position would be to have a raid full of mains only. Then everyone could always bid, no one would have to stress trying to play two boxes at once. An alts/boxes "reward" is that they continue to earn DKP, they gain experience, and they have a significant lesser chance, but still a chance, to be opened up to bidding. Neglecting the alts/boxes 100 percent would not be appropriate. They deserve some avenue to have a chance to be compensated for their contribution. I don't want alts or boxes to go out of style. They help people be flexible in their playing experience. Meboom had stated that when an alt/box outbids a main it sends a message to the mains that they are not as important. However, the reverse is true as well, to close the door to any possible rewards for alts/boxes discourages people to use them in the future.
I believe there is a balance here somewhere, and I appreciate that the guild officers are listening to people and trying to find a resolution that will help many of the members. Their position is a difficult one at times and I am grateful to them for trying as hard as they do to help the guild remain friendly and strong. =)
Thank You Officers
Copying Bam's post over here
since the dicussing has moved over here.
Bam Quote:
This is one of the things that was discussed ad nausem when the DKP rules were created. Let me posit this situation.
Newbie Guildie joins the guild and after his first raid has 24 DKP. an all/all neck drops. Boxed Toon has 1000 DKP bids and bids 10 DKP for it. Boxed toon has been on many numerous raids but has not gotten any loot because of the following, Newbie Guildie gets a seal and then bids 15, boxed toon cannot bid with your proposal. This happens 3 or 4 times, boxed rarely or never gets to bid as others with mains need stuff also. Boxed toon would bid 200 DKP for the item, but cannot even bid 20 to try to get it. The Irony is that Boxed toon has been on all 6 successful MPG Raids, and has helped gimp Newbie Guildie into the raid.
3 months later.
Now boxed toon has 1500 DKP, and newbie guildie has left the guild for a higher end raiding guild, as he is geared appropriately, has a looted seal, mastery of all, and that same neck all/all drops, Boxed toon bids 10 DKP for it, and Newbie guildie2, with 30 DKP bids 15 for it, and the cycle starts all over again.
This is why Boxes can bid. What good is earning DKP, if you are forbidden to spend it? Why should someone that has helped the guild progress be penalized for someone that just joined?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can see what you are saying, Boomer and I currently (and dont' plan on boxing)--but where do we draw the line? When do the boxes who have help us get through progression (and we would still be in PoP on Rathe Counsil if it wasn't for our boxes) actually get some loot. Bam is correct in his assessment on boxes getting loot nearly being impossible if what you propose comes into being.
We are always going to be losing and gaining members---meaning new mains that the box can't bid against and thus, zippo on loot for the box for all enternity---and UNTIL we can field a full raid foce of mains only, Boxes are going to be needed to fill the void.
Even worse, say we go by your proposal and we finish farming anguish and still don't have a full raid force of mains and the boxes have no upgrades cause the new mains joining the guild keep having priority over them and NEED our boxes for the next zone we tackle. The AE's or whatever alone is going to kill them off instantly---A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
We (officers) are however addressing the situation on the officer side of the website, but its not as black & white as some folks think it is.
If someone actually has a GOOD SOLUTION for this, we are more then willing to hear it.
I will put in my idea here. Keep the folks we have and RECRUIT!!!!!!! If we can GAIN more members than we LOSE (who raid) eventually we will be able to fill a full raid force of Mains. Thus making all of these discussions on Boxes a mute point.
***Note: IT IS EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY TO RECRUIT (OFFICERS AND MEMBERS ALIKE)***
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meboom Quote:
Right now, we can't consistently win the tough fights unless we have outside help.
Last night on the first named (Harrier I think) we might've had just one guest and were missing from our normal raiding ranks, Bimbolou, Bamorfy, Arreana, Kilor, Kikina (who is Kilor's wife and helps us sometimes in Anguish), Xreaverx, Rania, Sweeteyesx, Gnedd, Yorag (who showed up after the first named) and probably one or two more that I can't think of. And we ripped apart the event with only one death. Yes we did have a wealth of clerics for the night (Two for sure/possibly 3 were boxes) but were short on tanks). For Ture, we had 1 guest leave and 3 guests join, but quite frankly, I don't think we needed them)---we also beat that event with our best showing ever. The only thing that "Wiped us last night" was the stupid server crashing and booting us to all ends of Norrath when we came back in.
Yes we could be more consistance, but last night definately showed us that we are improving and soon won't need guests at all (not that we will deny a guest a spot in raid if it is open cause the more the merry I always say--ROFL).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Meboom Quote:
And as Caeni alluded to in this thread, there are certain classes that need more help than others at this time.
This has been discussed and I can't disagree with it more!
Tanks need to survive cause if the tanks die, the raid dies.
Clerics need to survive and not run out of mana or they can't heal the tanks, the tanks die and the raid die.
Shamans/Druids need mana so they can help keep the rest of the raid alive (including clerics) or they will die, the clerics will die and the tanks die and raid dies.
DPS classes need HP's/resists for melee or HP's/mana so they can live to beat down the mob before the Shaman's/Druid's run out of mana or die to keep the rest of the raid alive (including clerics), so the clerics can heal the tanks before they run out of mana or die, and if the tanks die, the raid dies.
Get the picture???????????
All classes are in need of upgrades. Not one more then the other.
Cykor
Which way to the nearest Pizza Parlor?
Which way to the nearest Pizza Parlor?
OMG Blueshadow!!!!!!!!!
This is exactly what I've been saying for a looooooooooooongggggggggggggg time!!!!!!!!!!
Blueshadow Quotes:
Ultimately, it would be wonderful if the guild numbers could increase a little more - maybe 10 more people or so.
***Assuming you mean raiding guild numbers here.***
The best possible position would be to have a raid full of mains only.
Meboom had stated that when an alt/box outbids a main it sends a message to the mains that they are not as important. However, the reverse is true as well, to close the door to any possible rewards for alts/boxes discourages people to use them in the future.
All true, so, so true.
Blueshadow Quote:
I believe there is a balance here somewhere, and I appreciate that the guild officers are listening to people and trying to find a resolution that will help many of the members. Their position is a difficult one at times and I am grateful to them for trying as hard as they do to help the guild remain friendly and strong. =)
Thank You Officers
Thank you Blueshadow for taking the time to say that.
Being an officer can be a thankless job sometimes and more often then not, its just plain no fun at times being an officer. All too often I have felt that our members think that we make our decissions by posting stick-it notes on a dart board, blindfold ourselves, and where the dart lands, that's what we put in our rules.
Our officer crew is a diverse as possible, so when anything is dicussed, it takes a bit longer to resolve things, cause each and everyone of us has different ideas and beliefs and we all stick to our ideas and beliefs (sometimes to the point of being stubborn). But in the end, our ultimate goal is to make as many folks happy as possible as long as the end result is also fair to everyone.
Its nice to hear a thank you every now and then.
Cykor
Which way to the nearest Pizza Parlor?
Which way to the nearest Pizza Parlor?
What I have to say is this
Sadly, I haven't been able to play for the last few months. But I do have to make this statement. The guild would absolutely not be where it is today if it were not for the folks who did an outstanding job of boxing a character that was needed on our raids right along with all our dedicated mains.
People are upset about boxes having more DKP than a main? I guess I have to pose this question....how long has that box or alt ,which earns a lesser amount of DKP than a main, raided as opposed to the main? Mains earn more points than a box. If a main attends every raid that a box is on, a box will never earn more than that main. If whoever has complained is someone who has joined the guild within the last few months, please keep in mind that some of those boxes you complain about being able to outbid you have been working to assist the guild get to where we are for the last couple of years. If it weren't for those very same boxes you wouldn't even have the opportunity to be bidding on items in the zones this guild is currently able to attack. Heck I joined this guild over 2 years ago...I have those same dedicated players to thank for getting us to these areas of opportunity. Am I disappointed to ever lose a bid on an item? Sure, it's human nature to be disappointed......but I don't begrudge the person who had more points than I, whether they are a main or a box....if they have more points, obviously they EARNED THEM by attending the raids.
We have needed those boxes just as we have needed all our mains. They are both important and have both contributed to the success our guild has enjoyed in the raid encounters. Boxes are dropped from a raid in favor of a main wanting to attend. But when there is room on the raid for the box, those boxes have always been there to perform a much needed function.
I want to make clear, that having never before been a part of a guild that used DKP, I was highly reserved about about the prospect when it was first broached. But I wish each of you were privy to the exhaustive conversations the officers had when this system was initially being hammered out, and the subsequent conversations that have been held to streamline this process as much as possible and to make it as fair as possible for everyone who raids, whether they are a casual raider or one who wants to raid in a much more dedicated fashion. You have no idea how many angles were considered to take into account the EXTREME complexity of this guild. If it could be seen how hard your officers worked on this to make it as right as possible for everyone, I think all of us would have a little more appreciation for the people who handle the DKP and keep track of points and bids and everything else associated with it.
YOUR OFFICERS AND LEADERSHIP CARE ABOUT ALL OF YOU.
What I will say further is this, and this is my own personal feelings on the matter...anyone who knowlingly abuses this system which was crafted to make it as fair as possible...such as bidding up an item to make the item cost someone else more DKP, or any other flagrant type of abuse...YOU DESERVE A SWIFT KICK RIGHT IN THE SEAT. That type of behavior, just the very thought of it, nauseates and disgusts me that someone in this guild would do that to a guildmate on purpose. I hope I am clear enough that I believe if anyone is found to abuse our system in a harmful way, it would be my desire to see any abusers of our system deguilded POST HASTE. A person who takes advantage of a fellow guildmate is in NO WAY deserving of the guild tag "Keepers of the Glade."
Being happy doesn't mean that everything is perfect. It means you have decided to see beyond the imperfections.
boxes
As i said in another thread, i think a cap on what a box can bid, could help. Say if it was 200. A box could easily outbid a member who has been in the guild for a week or two or only comes once in a month. But wouldn't really be able to outbid mains who have been raiding for a long time.
If you look at goldenhearts, boxes are even more important to them. I think every person there plays 3 toons lol. But stuff is always open to mains first, and if none want then boxes.. and then recruits... and then guests.
Or have some kind of zone exception. such as anguish being our top loot zone atm. make it mains only. and then everything else we do open for all.
I haven't really noticed any problems with boxes bidding myself though. And just throwing ideas out there
Actually Toesniffer
What you have suggested above is very close to what we are coming up with on the officer side of the house right now. Hopefully we will have something firmly in place before next week-end's raids.
Please stand by.....
Cykor
Which way to the nearest Pizza Parlor?
Which way to the nearest Pizza Parlor?
I don't know what Cykor and
I don't know what Cykor and the officers have come up with, but if the dkp max bid for a box is a set number, thats about as bad as the alternative minimum tax by the US congress... It doesn't take into account, inflation, deflation, and everything else.
And I Really hope our officers have more intelligence than the US senate and house of reps.
Anyhow, I was thinking about a percentage, if a box wanted to win an item over a main, they had to bid a certain percentage higher than the mains bid. But if it was box vs box, they would both be on equal footing.
Just my 2 cents...with of course the appropriate amount taken out for capital gains tax, income tax, I didn't vote for that guy tax...
If we set an amount as a max box bid
It would be adjustable as farming zones change, and also only for current progression zone, i.e. Anguish atm.
Trust me Lakesx, we are WAY smarter than the idjits in Congress.
Bamorfy
Barbarian Shaman
Quymeni
High Elf Wizard
Bertoxx Server Forums
Bamorfy
Barbarian Shaman
Quymeni
High Elf Wizard
Bertoxx Server Forums
Self Interest
Lakesx you play two, would you feel the same if you only played one? That is half the problem. Human nature is to see things from a point of view that benefits ourselves most. You are not wrong for that, it just is a good illustration of what we are working on.
I have not responded to this poll as I think the issue is not how much dkp anyone can earn, it is spending the dkp. Since I play two I have some self interest in how this turns out, so it is more fair to allow those who play one to decide.
we have only been in Anguish a few weeks and are just scratching the surface of the loot items there. Give it a few months and we will all be ready to move on to the next zone with new loot they have not seen before. For now lets think about winning more of the name fights so we have more loot to drool over and bid on. If we have more loot to get to the people who want or need it then we will eventually have enough for any boxes needing upgrades as well.
Boxes
In my opinion....Boxes on raids is a most common occurance these days. The issue with DKP earned on boxes goes to when a Box with 500 dkp outbids a main with 200 dkp saved...I realize Mains come 1st in all and rots got to apps / box/ alts....Box toons on Raids is an asset, normally i Box Cleric / Necro....my own extra mana pool lol....As far as gearing up my Alt...all things come to those who wait is my old anology...New into CoA alt boxes should not be alowed any loot unless rot, Farmed zones such as Tacvi / GoD content is different, Boxes should only be allowed loot in farmed zones if the Main is present to keep people from only raiding Alts, in which case are most likley not geared as weel as mains and might cause more issues than helping...I also realize some think 1 cant pay 100% attention to Main toon if boxing...this is untrue as well, I find i pay more attention when boxing so as not to screw some thing up on accident...Just my 2 pennies worth
see yall in game
Well good luck working this
Well good luck working this out all ....LOL. Personally, boxes dont bother me a bit as they are needed. The real problem I think we have right now is that we are not in a farm zone so loot is very limited. We are not in Tacvi yet and as stated above Anguish is still a task without outside help. I raid once a week and I can tell you that my DKP is very limited at best and there are boxes with alot more DKP than me ....however I have watched those same boxes bid against me only to back off knowing that this is my main and thinking I needed it more (not to point out anyone in particular but they are the 2 more common boxes but kudos to Bam and Caeni, explains why they are officers). I think Hieclerx and Toe have some good points, our problem is we dont have a farm zone as of yet.
Mordethe 71 Necro
Ardekis 70 Pally
Mordethe 80 Necro
Ardekis 74 Pally
Originally Posted by midnoctus "Some Necs can Kite in a phone booth"
Thank you for the kind words,
However, you are right, we do not have a farming zone atm(it's been months since we did a PoTime run), and that may alleaviate the issue, should we break into Tacvi, that may help in this manner and i had not even thought of this. Plus it would help us gear up to beat CoA.
Bamorfy
Barbarian Shaman
Quymeni
High Elf Wizard
Bertoxx Server Forums
Bamorfy
Barbarian Shaman
Quymeni
High Elf Wizard
Bertoxx Server Forums